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Author Topic: A little help finding key centers  (Read 12136 times)
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ipitythefoool
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« on: April 04, 2006, 12:03:57 AM »

Can someone explain to me why the key center in the version of All Blues in the below link is in the key of C instead of G? 

http://www.ralphpatt.com/VB/a6.html
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bonjovirules
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2006, 02:58:45 AM »

Are you sure this is correct? I haven't heard the song so I don't know. Looking just at the chords, I would think we'd play in G. After examining the chords, I'd also ask if this is a modern song or an old one.



Look at the scale used and chords:



C Eb F F# G Bb C


G7- G B D F

C7- C E G Bb


D7- D F# A C


Eb7- Eb G Bb C#



Looking closely at the chords, you'll find that the chord extensions that you get by playing the C blues over these chords gives you a very modern sound....something like what the modern players use (Scott Henderson perhaps).

eg, on G7 an Eb gives you a #5, you have both the major and minor 7ths and major and minor 3rds which could be sound nice if well used (Don't ask me how, I have no clue).



From what I make of it, playing the C blues on these chords will probably give you the feel that you'd get from a diminished scale. I could be totally off though. This is just pure speculation. Greater chances are that the transription is incorrect and the key of the song is G.
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ipitythefoool
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2006, 03:28:49 PM »

Hmm.  Well, then in that case, maybe you'll be a little less confused about this one:

http://www.ralphpatt.com/VB/s2.html

Can you explain why this is in the key of C?

And can someone just explain to me how determine the key center of any song?
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2006, 03:28:49 PM »

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Valentin Zukovsky
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hmmm...

Audiophage0
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2006, 06:35:18 PM »

I guess that they called it C instead of G because G7 is one of the main chords involved, which would have a F natural instead of an F#. It doesn't have to start on the tonic of the key signature to be in that key.
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bonjovirules
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2006, 08:39:41 PM »

I guess that they called it C instead of G because G7 is one of the main chords involved, which would have a F natural instead of an F#. It doesn't have to start on the tonic of the key signature to be in that key.


------------------

When it said key of C, I automatically assumed that it would mean C blues and not C major....or is it not assumable?
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bonjovirules
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2006, 09:01:25 PM »

Damnit, where is fingers when you need him  Embarrassed


I think I've finally understood this one....the "key" they refer to is the "home key" so to speak which you come back to at the end of the progression.


See you start off in the key of C....a simple 2/5 progression. This particular song is a series of 2/5 2/5 progressions. I'll try to explain the first few bars.


You start off:

Dm G7 Dm G7


A 2 and a 5 in the key of C, simple enough?


From here, you shift keys from C to D by playing a 2/5 in the key of D....

Em A7

comprende?


Now from here, you want to move back to C but you do not want to be abrupt with the change so you take it slow...you move from the key of D (which has 2 sharps) to the key of G (which has one sharp) by playing a D7 chord (which is a 5 in the key of G).

Then why play the Db7? A Db7 is played as the flat 5th substitution of G7 which was where we were aiming to go to....(the rule says that any dom7th chord can be substituted by the dom7th chord of it's flat 5th)

The Db7 also gives us a cool chromatic run from D7 to C major. Ideally you should play a C major 9th after this instead of C major.


So you see, the key centre remains C for the entire song even though you are changing mid-way.


If you still can't understand, feel free to ask questions.
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2006, 09:01:25 PM »

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Fingers
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2006, 05:32:30 PM »

Quote
Can someone explain to me why the key center in the version of All Blues in the below link is in the key of C instead of G?

I would explain to you why its in the key of C Major and give you several reasons why, but I'm not going to.  But, I will give you a hint, there is a subtle clue not included in the progression but implied by the word "jazz".

I am simply going to ignore that word "jazz" and say that it is in the key of G major instead. 

And I could give you at least 5 reasons why its G Major, but I'm not going to do that either.  Instead, I am going to encourage you to

a.) simply play it and let your ears tell you why, and then
b.) get your "jazz waltz vibe out" (whatever that is) and simply play it and let your ears tell you why it may not be the key of G Major.

 Tongue




Damnit, where is fingers when you need him  Embarrassed

I think I've finally understood this one....the "key" they refer to is the "home key" so to speak which you come back to at the end of the progression.



I'm difficult to find because there is a lack of musical discussion around here.  Thanks for your thoughts.  I've enjoyed your recordings these past several months even if I haven't said so, especially the "emo" stuff that was excellent.
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bonjovirules
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2006, 12:57:53 AM »

Quote


Damnit, where is fingers when you need him  Embarrassed

I think I've finally understood this one....the "key" they refer to is the "home key" so to speak which you come back to at the end of the progression.



I'm difficult to find because there is a lack of musical discussion around here.  Thanks for your thoughts.  I've enjoyed your recordings these past several months even if I haven't said so, especially the "emo" stuff that was excellent.
________________


Thanks man, I appreciate it.It's sad to see TC go this way but I suppose it's past it's shelf life.

So was I even partially correct with my speculation?
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Fingers
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 08:06:52 PM »


Thanks man, I appreciate it.It's sad to see TC go this way but I suppose it's past it's shelf life.

So was I even partially correct with my speculation?
I think you were entirely correct to say that the song changes key.  12 bars of music is more than enough to constitute a musical statement in a key and then it is followed by a change of keys, especially to a near neighbor key (in the circle of fifths sense)), C or Am <->G or Em or C or Am <->F or Dm.  They share all but one tone in common.

Although it is useful to look at the chord tones in a chord progression for a clue as to the possible underlying scale (as you have done), I don't believe that it bears fruit in this example.  For not all chords are "equal" in weight in a given progression, especially in blues and jazz.  One must consider the "role" of the chord within the progression. There are well used patterns in music where these non diatonic "foreign" chords show up in what are otherwise straight up major or minor chord progressions.

Point 1: Used as half step tension creators and releasers

For example if we look at that bar with the Eb7, we notice that all that chord is doing is creating some tension by leaving a few bars of D7 by walking to Eb7 for a bar, and then returning to more D7, so it created some tension in that section of endless D7 by walking up a half step before being released with a return to D7.  This isn't something I would place a lot of weight on as far as helping us understand the key.  This is best understood by playing it, and getting a feel for the common ways that blues and jazz players move in half steps to and from important chords like the tonic (I), sub-dominant (IV), and dominant (V).

The type of analysis you were performing sometimes doesn't bear fruit when we listen with our ears or see this common "half step up" or "half step down" kind of movement. 

This is especially true and dramtically illustrated in Blues Turnarounds, where before returning to the I chord in bar 1, a turnaround is employed.

Example: in common 12 bar blues in G major, we commonly see something like

Bar 11: G G7 Gdim7 Gbdim7

then in

Bar 12: G D7

then its back to the I chord (G) for bar I to begin again. 

And none of those chords give us a clue concerning the key, its just bluesy stuff in a classic turn-around (a la Robert Johnson, and all the great old blues players).

Notice the Gbdim7 is a perfect chord for moving to G.  This type of chord can also commonly be used as a passing chord when moving in whole steps such as from A to G, as in A to Gbdim7 to G.  Again, giving us no insight into the key of a piece of music.

So, we have to be careful not to draw too many conclusions from the chords that are listed and ask ourselves what is its role in the progression, sometimes they are obvious half step movements into and out of the I, IV, or V chord. 

Another example: This is common too for V chords in 12 bar blues.  For example, in the key of G major: the bars with V chords sound something like this:

such as the 9th or 12th bar: D5 Db6 D7 Db6

Simply walking around before returning to the I chord or possibly the IV chord

Another example: the bII chord is used in jazz a lot to simply create a way to step into the I chord.

Point 2: Watch for bIII and bVII chords in Jazz, Blues, and Rock

We are sometimes wondering what is going on when we encounter these chords in a progression that otherwise looks like C major all the way.

We know for example that the key is C major, yet there are Bb7 and Eb7 chords all over the place.  Huh? is the key moving counter clockwise around the circle of fifths to F or Bb from C major? probably not.

+something to ignore+ Is the music simply modal (music which is centered around a modal formula) and not tonal (music with a definite key).  Well, it could be in jazz for sure, especially a la Miles Davis, but again probably not. (I shouldn't even bring this up in a discussion of keys in jazz, but I couldn't resist). +/something to ignore+

Yet the piece of music in C major sure sounds ambiguous, possibly bluesy (because the pentantonic or some blues scale is at work also) yet we are hearing a lot of b7 tones (Bb) and b3 tones (Eb), which might cause our ears to be pulled toward the key of Eb Major/C minor, and thus ambiguous.  Well, that's just cool chord progressions in C major for you.  Tonal music.  C major.  Yet, not so diatonic.

These 2 chords (bIII and bVII) are some of my favorites to throw into a major chord progression that is otherwise filled with diatonic chords.  Try it.  You'll like it. 

Especially, if you can exploit their tones in your melodies.  Ahh...a couple more tones with some good chords to work with and yet the ear still retains the key and so it doesn't sound modal, atonal, or chromatic at all, and yet my chords aren't endless I IV V or diatonic forms either.

hmm....!?!?!

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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 08:06:52 PM »

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bonjovirules
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2007, 11:58:18 AM »

I had to bring this up again because Fingers is bloody brilliant.
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